Birth to Grave: Allied Family- Sartain and Long

Parents: The target question is, does Thomas Riley ‘TR’ Sartin belong to the parents of: Thomas Albert ‘TA’ Sartain + Mary Lenora Goforth OR Isiah ‘Zarah’ Sartin + Elizabeth Martin? Another possibility is he’s the son of neither. Let’s add another question: are Zarah and TA brothers or cousins? Let’s focus for now on these two Sartain men, make the assumption they’re brothers. I’m focusing on TR retaining the Sartin name after he leaves AL, hinting more at a male Sartain subject than a female, who would have changed names after she married.

I frequently look at things from so many directions I get into other allied lines, the lines that intersect somehow with mine, but ones I have no DNA relationship to. This one I have no DNA relationship to the specific targets, however I am DNA related to TA’s last wife, Tyrena. Most of the time one of my cousins I research with, toss things around, which is more the case here. I do a lot of the DNA work between several of us. Since this issue recently came up, I thought I’d start with the “birth to grave” analysis. This is going through every document others have attributed or ones I come across while researching. My lack of brevity will tell you immediately I’m into details, and I can get down to a tick-mark specific look. Cases like this one, wow, it brings out a lot of detail many overlook. But will it answer who the father is, or bring up more unanswered questions?

Let’s begin…. Thomas Riley Sartain (aka Sartin), birth to grave.

15Apr21: I’ll be making some updated comments to this throughout, and dated, as I’ve been corresponding with a descendant of TR’s line, and have learned some things that are pertinent to this.

B. 1832, 1835, 1836, 1842 1848, updated 30May21 (see under James Jackson’s delayed BC comments with this same red/date. I sometimes use what others have for documented information to base the outline, and see if I can prove/disprove their information. Using an estimated age when I start, then 10 year increments beginning with the first census after birth. Ex: using 1832, the first census would be 1840 so his age would be 8, then 1850-18, 1860-28, and so on. It’s an easy way to look at incoming data for discrepancies. Also where there’s multiple ‘same named’ persons in the same county. Sometimes a much younger/older person can be eliminated at first using this. We know, from other descendants, he D. 1906 bd. Pottawatomie Co, OK and we know who his wife is but no records per se for when he md, but I believe it was possibly up north while he was in Civil War.

Timeline

Census detail, by year, noting there is no 1890 census due to the fire in Washington DC. Interspersed will also be any life events with documentation, such as marriage, children, etc.

1840 (5) depending on his DOB, 1832/6 this would be the first census he’s on. However, note the 1840 is a ‘tick-mark’ head of household with males/females under specific ages here. So the best you could do is look at both Zarah and TA and check the male children within the ages +/- 1-2 on each side of the year of birth given (to accommodate for birth month fluctuations.) The 1842 DOB means he’s not on the 1840 census even as a census. I’m using, you’ll see, 1835 as his DOB but looking at all (**likely starting here, Amanda’s the mother of these children) possibilities, he’d be 8 on the 1850 with his parents. (OF COURSE I can’t find an 1850 census)

I have a note at the top of my paper that says I think 1835 is more accurate. Within the 1840 category, I have written:

I'm beginning to think his wife was much younger than he was and he lied originally about how "young" he was.  His year of birth is NEVER the same.  

I’m going to use 1835 as the age I do the every 10 year marker. But note, I do look at any possibility as to why the person consistently lies about their age. Some generic possibilities:

  • They didn’t know it.
  • They’re running from the law.
  • They’re hiding from a former wife, or abandoned child.
  • They owe taxes.
  • They changed much of their life to be completely removed from family.
  • The person who gave the census information each time was a different person and they didn’t know the DOB.
  • The neighbor gave the census information.

I’ve actually been able to prove some of these reasons for my own family, so ‘generic’ is a lie. LOL But the list goes on, and here so shall we…

1850 (15) I was unable to find one. I did just find this, on a TR’s descendants tree notes: ‘According to (his) granddaughter, Pansy Hembree Way, he left home between the age of 12 to 14 (1844 and 1846), so he won’t show in any of the 1850 censuses with a family.

This is using 1832-34 as the presumed DOB for 1846. 1844 is 1830-32. (Subtract 12, 14 from each year given). Now, using this logic: 1835+12= 1847, 14=1849. 1842: 12/1854, 14/1856. So truly depending on what his DOB is, you can skew the data in a lot of different directions. What does appear to be true is he does leave Franklin Co, but let’s see if we pin down when a little tighter, shall we.

1855 (20) Franklin Co, AL (p8/49) I found this later, but note this is Thomas ALBERT’s census. Let’s assume TR is his kid, and 1835 is his DOB (two HUGE assumptions) then he’d be 19 and therefore likely not at home as most (not all) married by 18-20. This is also a tick marked census, so we have to put the people we know about in the age groups to see what fits/doesn’t. I’m going to just do the males here for brevity.

5 males under 21 (Louis, James, Isiah, William, Pleasant). 1 male over 21: Thomas Albert.

No room for TR here. He could have moved on, as we will see in 1860, but I suspect he’d still be at home at this age since we find he doesn’t marry until later. I just thought I’d add this one here.

1860 (25) US Federal 20 Aug, Ryans Well Twnshp, Itawamba Co, MS p 213 (220 of 366 on Ancestry) In the George Saunders household, as a farm laborer. “Thos Sartin 24 M b. AL unmarried (Analysis: b 1836= 1860-24)

X Jul, US Federal Tuscaloosa, AL p 55 (55/59) Line 30: Thos Sartin 28 b AL unmarried, overseer (Analysis: b 1832= 1860-28. Location is also not likely since Tuscaloosa is several counties south of Franklin.)

Final: using these 2 censuses, I believe the one with Thos Sartin in Itawamba Co as a laborer is the more likely case and even the DOB here, 1836. Since I can’t get to a census yet that is while he is still a child (which for me is preferable) this is the first one before he really gets into life, and the closest we get. Again, using notes from TR’s descendant above, a note dated 2 years ago on her tree, says: “The 1860 census shows him living with the Sanders family in same place Sarah Elizabeth Haney, his wife, was born in, Itawamba, MS.” Keep in mind, Franklin Co AL and Itawamba Co MS are literally sister counties. I have 3 family members I can think of that they married their spouse from the other county, so travel was not difficult. It’s also been told to me by cousins in the area, that the county lines of Franklin and Itawamba were in dispute regularly, so like with Colbert/Franklin in 1870, you could have lived in Franklin one day, then when Colbert was created, you appear to have moved-when in fact you didn’t. So there’s a lot to consider when looking at these 2 locations. (Not to mention anything pre-1890 for Franklin Co was destroyed in the Dec 1890 courthouse fire.) Now let’s see what happens as he travels through life.

1863 Jul Saint Louis, Missouri Civil War Draft Registration: p199/486 Line 20. Thomas Sartin Aged 23 farmer, Place of birth AL It’s unknown (without doing more research) if this is the same Thomas, but not that his son George WAS born in Indiana, (see updated info Re George towards the end. Appears he might’ve been born in MS) so it gives some credence to it. Reminder for non-war history peeps, the Civil War was 1861-65.

1870 (35) 12 Aug, US Federal Izard Pineville Co, Arkansas p9 (9/29) Lines 35-39. So we see here he has moved from Alabama between 1860 and 1870. Even before looking at the census, I suspect he was in the war (which is leaning he might’ve been) and therefore depending which side he enlisted, the troops he enlisted, would depend on where he would have travelled, but remember the fight was in the South, not Indiana.

  • Sarten, Thomas age 28 (b 1842) b AL
  • Elizabeth 22 (1848) b MS (aka Sarah E)
  • George 5 (1865) b ____ IND (during Civil War (?), see 1880, & towards end dated 15Apr21)
  • John 3 (1867) b AK (falls off 1880 census)
  • Isaac 2/12 (@ Jun 1870) b AK (although birth month listed as Apr!)

Now, let’s first look at a a few things. He’s married with a family. I see one son, George, as being born in Indiana. I really thought that was an error but it isn’t, therefore his wife had to be in that location when the son was born (stating the obvious but it must be said to think of alternatives). I would presume Eliz + Thos married either just before the war in MS and she traveled with him, or circa 1864, at least 9 months prior to George’s DOB. I’ve not seen anyone having marriage records so their POM/DOM is unknown to me.

They are then in Ark by John’s birth, 1867.

Next is the names chosen for the sons. It’s curious the order, so I would look to see why they named them in that order. Is George a brother, or perhaps Eliz’s father’s name? Was he a friend or superior in the war? John is next. Again, brother? Father? Perhaps even Eliz’s brother? Remember, naming children was an artform back in these days, especially for men. Does anyone see a Thomas? Nope (should be the answer). But what DO you see? Isaac. We have 2 target fathers: Thomas + Isaac (aka Zarah). Just pointing out the obvious here.

Now let’s talk about the first thing you really should have seen. Notice next to 1870 is (35). This means his target age (using 1835 as DOB) is how old he should be right now but he’s listed as aged 28. His wife is 22. (Please see the note at the beginning as to why I thought his DOB is used to make himself younger for his much younger wife!) IF this age is really his true age, then he’ll be 38 on the next census. (Cheating: he’s not). Then the next census, 1900 (no 1890, remember) he should be 58. (He’s not, although closer than you’d thing). But let’s take a quick peek at the very end of this, there’s 2 sets of censuses for both TA and Zarah. Each has a son named Thomas. One b 1848, the other 1877. The one 1848 at least is closer to this date, 1842, than it would be at 1832. The 1877 one is TA’s son with his 3rd wife, Tyrena, named Thomas Jewell, but he’s too far outside the age range. But notice he now has a son named Thomas.

1880 (45) 7 Jun, US Federal Union Town, Izard Co, Arkansas p 10 (9/29) LInes 8-14

  • Sartin, Thomas 45 (1835) b AL F b. TN M b. TN
  • Sarah E 33 (1847) b MS TN SC
  • George L 14 (1866) b IND AL MS
  • Isaac N 9 (1871) b ARK AL MS (dies 1931 Izard Co ARK)
  • Frances M 7 (1873) b ARK AL MS
  • Eliz G 4 (1876) b ARK AL MS
  • Reuben L 2 (1878) b ARK AL MS

Location: They’re still in Izard Co. Age: TR’s age is on the money for an 1835 DOB. However, remember just the prior census he was only 28, which should make him 38 if that’s his true age. But he’s gone from 28 to 45, (17 years older) in just 10 years! Pay attention here (17 years difference) to a delayed birth certificate for James Jackson Sartin, at the end. My thought is he has come clean to his wife he’s really not as young as he claimed. Here we learn both TR’s parents were born in Tennessee. Of course, this isn’t going to eliminate anything since both TA and Mary were b TN and since TA was, (without looking) I suspect Isaac was as well, therefore likely his wife was. So no help.

John isn’t on this census. He would have only been 13, so he’s not of marrying age. Did he die? I’d look in Izard Co for burial info since they didn’t move between 1870/80. We also notice they have had several other children, another son, Rueben. Also notice the middle initials, none are T, or even A, but the daughter appears to be named for her mother, which was likely named for either her mother or a grandmother.

1890 (55) again, no census but the estimated ages of everyone: Thomas 55, Sarah 43, George 24, Isaac 19, Frances, 17, Eliz 14, Reuben 12. Several of them are now of age to marry: George, Isaac, Frances. Since there’s a huge gap in time from 1880 -1900 census, I’d look before 1890 for George and Isaac, and right around 1890 for Frances. Eliz will be of age within a few years, so start @ 1892/3. Reuben too, start 1895.

1900 (65) 16 Jun, US Federal White River Town, Izard Co, AR p8A lines 25-29 (noting son George is living next door. Spoiler alert! He got md!)

  • Sartin, Thomas Dec 1839 60 wid b AL TN TN Farmer Rent can Read + write
  • Timothy D Nov 1880 19 b ARK AL MS (dies 1969 Stone Co, ARK)
  • James J Jun 1883 16 b ARK AL MS (James Jackson)
  • Rhoda A Feb 1886 14 b ARK AL MS
  • Sarah P Aug 1889 10 b ARK AL MS (middle name Parzetta)

Oh where do I begin? His age now is suddenly b 1839, making him only 15 years older than he was on the 1880 census, which of course was 20 years ago. So he does lie about his age consistently. But we know now his month of birth is Dec. He is consistent about being born in AL and his parents TN. Next is that his wife has since died, I suspect about 1890, or late 1889 if it was in childbirth of Sarah. Speaking of childbirth, they’ve now had quite a few more children. Remember it’s been 20 years since we’ve seen this family. So all the children living at home are new, and the ones from 1880 have all gone and gotten themselves married (presumably). I can say, as noted above, George is living next door. But let’s take another look at the male children’s names. Not a single Thomas, or Albert. Sarah, was also named, it appears, after her mother’s first name (and then I’d look at where Sarah Elizabeth comes from in her line. I suspect mother/grandmothers. These could be clues to mothers or women in Sarah or Thomas Riley’s parents lines.)

Location: we’re still in Izard Co. So he’s been here since at least 1870, 30 years. I say this as a precursor to something that is about to appear, but it also shows his family has definitely dug their roots deep here, establishing quite a bit of stability.

James Jackson Sartin Now lets look at a delayed birth certificate, issued 1 Jun 1944 (61 years after the fact) I found for James Jackson Sartin. The DOB for James is 8 Jun 1881. Full stop. I already see a problem. The first census James was on is the 1900 census (repeat, no 1890 one) and his month/year are listed: Jun 1883. We have a 2 year discrepancy. Let’s look at this document further for more info. The informant is his 71 year old sister, France M. Ok, WHY is there a discrepancy? In 1944, DOB 1883 makes him 61, and 63 if 1881. Guess who is eligible for retirement (even military if he was in WW1), or Social Security if you’re 63? Also, which document is closer to the actual event, and not the memory of someone 60 years later? Don’t believe me? Well, on James’ first marriage license 1904, he’s 20, putting DOB 1883, as well as his second marriage license, dated 8Aug1907, James’ listed age 24, DOB 1883. So there’s 3 documents under 25 years old that show the same DOB of 1883, not 1881. Add: 22May 21: 1. WW1 draft card signed 12Sep1918, he writes his DOB 1883. 2. 1930 census approximates 1883 as age is 47. 3. Also, in an undated SSA record but after Aug 1938, it shows is DOB as Jun 1882, again not 1883. 4. WWII registration card signed 25Apr1942, lists his DOB 1881./end add But wait, there’s more:

The delayed BC shows the age of parents at his birth. (Get ready to scroll in 3…2…1..) Thomas’ age is 52, and his mother Sarah is 35. Let’s do a little quick math: 52-35= 17 years. (hold this thought just a second). Take Sarah’s age at his birth: 35, add her DOB we’ve established, 1848, and what do you get? 35+1848=1883, the year James was born. Ok! That checks out. Let’s do the same for Thomas. 52+1835=1887. Nope. 52+1832=1884. Closest. 52+1839=1891 52+1842=1894. No way. So let’s look again at 1832. What could cause a discrepancy in quick math. The first thing I would look at the months both men were born, since we know them. TR was Dec and James is June. That’s enough of a difference that his son was b. in June and hadn’t yet reached his birthday for the year in Dec. So let’s do the math using his year of birth in the last year he achieved one, 1831, and see what happens: 52+1831=1883. BINGO. It also makes my 1835 fall flat.

Update 30May21: One date I repeatedly stayed away from while working this BTG, was the 1848 DOB for TR, because one descendant is insistent that he’s not the Thos b 1848 in AL. I have been working a great deal with their DNA, as well as now getting into documentation (yes, a new post for sure) but I came back to this BTG to see what might have changed IF I use that DOB. So, I took James Jackson’s DOB (1883) and subtracted 35. Guess what I get? 1848!!!

Staying on the parents’ ages on this delayed BC. Remember I took TR + Sarah’s ages and subtracted them and got 17 years? Well, if you go back to the year where TR’s age jumps wildly, 1880 census. He literally ages from 1870 age 28 to 45 in 1880. 17 years in 10 years. WHY? (1842/1870 vs 1835/1880). Let’s just look at ages on census for TR:

  • 1860 24 (1835, using month of birth against date census taken)
  • 1870 28 (1841, using month of birth against date census taken)
  • 1880 45 (1834, using month of birth against date census taken)
  • 1900 60 (1839, using month of birth against date census taken)

Normally, this is what a person’s ages would look like using same years of census:

  • 1860 24
  • 1870 34
  • 1880 44
  • 1900 64

See the oddities in TR’s? To me, 1835 looks like the right year target of TR’s birth, but for his son’s birth certificate, they definitely acknowledge he wasn’t b. 1841 as he implies in 1870. Nor 1839 in 1900. 1860 and 1880 are closer to this date.

15Apr21: George Littleton Sartin: I’d originally paid no mind to him beyond the 1900 census where he’s living next door to his father because his POB had been consistent, had been his DOB, however, it was while responding to TR’s descendant, that I had to check a document which brought to my attention that until his death, beginning after his father’s death in 1906, he now says his POB is MS. Not Missouri, but Mississippi. So let’s now take a look at this, bc one of the things that has bothered me, is there’s no marriage certificate for TR and Sarah. Given George’s Aug 1865 DOB, it is likely he was conceived circa: Nov-Dec 1864, at the latest, therefore the marriage would be (respectfully) at minimum, Nov-Dec 1864 or even up until say Feb 1865. Given the change in location, I would first look in MS, of which I checked the Itawamba Historical Society site who has an index of Marriage Book 6, 1861-65. Now, perhaps this isn’t the full index, as some of their other books aren’t, but it is a much faster way than searching Ancestry (ugh).

To refresh, descendant has July 1865 as DOB and remember the majority of census questions ask for age as “the age at last birthday”. If his birthday is in July, and a census was taken in April, you take the year and subtract the age (say 1870-5) and the assumption he’ll be 6 in July, therefor the DOB is truly 1864. If the census was taken in October, then 1870-5 and 1865 is DOB. So let’s evaluate his census quickly (I don’t want to do everyone’s work for them) but this will be important to then beginning a true hunt for TR/Sarah’s marriage license, and perhaps in the right state!

  • 1865 I have previously presumed his DOB was Aug 1865.
  • 1870 Census (Jun) : age 5 IND. 1870-5 (but he’s b Aug)= 1865
  • 1880 (Jun) age 14 IND 1870-14 (but Jun)=1865
  • (no 1890)
  • 1900 Jun “Aug 1865 aged 34” b IND 1900-34= 1865 (again Jun census).
  • 1910 Apr aged 44, b MS 1910-44 = 1865 (since April) (Note both his mother and father are listed as being born in Mississippi! TR till now has been AL. Note the departure from the 1900 census and the other fact, TR has since died 1906).
  • 1920 Jan aged 53 b MS 1920-53= 1866 since Jan.
  • Son’s Delayed BC (1961): James Paris Sartin b 30 Dec 1901, say his father was “37 years old and b MS” If Aug is his month of birth, that makes 1901-37= 1864. Second, and most importantly is the POB, as Mississippi. It’s spelled out.

The quick look, like this definitely is, I still think he was b 1865. The 1961 Bc for his son was done decades after the father’s death, and the 1920 census seems to be the only one off. The informant in this instance could have been off a year while the rest are consistent. But the POB are however NOT consistent. That does make me question where he was born and why he suddenly starts giving the information after he father has died, that he’s born in MS not IND? So again for this reason and the fact that I believe the 1860 census has TR in Itawamba, and Sarah herself has lived there (it’s speculated that’s how they met). /end addition 15Apr21

Death and burial: Now, where and when did TR die? Where is he buried? Let’s look at that. Literally add Thomas Riley Sartin to Find a Grave and you get this result Memorial ID 38932898. It shows his DOB as Dec 1832 (headstone says 1832) and death 1906. Location Shawnee, Pottawatomie Co, Oklahoma. WAIT. He’s spent 30 years in Arkansas at minimum. And now his wife has died, (this says circa 1890), but he now moves to Oklahoma? We can’t get census records because he d. 1906 and the next one isn’t till 1910. It also shows he’s buried in Johnson Cemetery, Econtuchka, Pottawatomie County, OK. The things this page we can ‘confirm’ are what’s on the headstone, and the location of burial. The list of children appear mostly correct, but I dispute (off the top) James’ DOB as per above. It may be what his legal BC says, but it’s not his DOB.

Retraction, a little: I’d originally written this out with the idea TR moves to be near a sister (d/o Zarah) but TR’s daughter Parazetta was married age 18, in Pottawatomie Co, OK to Robert Hembree on 24 May 1907, noting this is the year after TR’s death in 1906. Appears her brother Jim Sartin was a witness. So let’s take another look at the kids, youngest first to see if we can determine when he moved to OK. Of note, it appears she also remains here until her death in 1944, buried at the same cemetery as her father.

Rhoda was md. to Thomas Vannatter on 30 Oct 1901, Mount Olive, Izard, ARK. She was aged 18, her DOB per 1900 census Feb 1883. But then, according to one tree, she dies in 1906, the same year as her father but I can’t find anything supporting this. The husband does remarry, 1917 giving some credence then to her death. According to Find A Grave, they aren’t attributing the children Nettie and Buck Eldredge to Mr Vannatter’s 2nd wife Betty, but they also don’t list a memorial for Rhoda, so she’s either buried without a headstone or no one has found the memorial yet.

3rd youngest of TR’s kids, James. He marries twice. Once in 1904 Izard to Annie Hill, then a 2nd time to Nellie Hembree, which we talk about the age on this license above, to show he was not b 1881, but 1883. The second marriage was in Pottawatomie, OK and he appears to have remained here until after 1935 but before 1940, when he moves to California where he dies in Stanislaus Co. So we have 1904 as earliest documented date of one of TRs kids moving by (could have been a bit earlier).

My first question was why did he go to OK? Were his kids there? We know by 1904 Jim was. So why did his kids go this specific county in OK? Was it across the border from ARK to OK? Let’s do a quick “google map: distance from county to county.’ 355.4 miles (county to county) So no, it wasn’t just a move to the next town. So who does he/kids know there? So after 1900 census and by 1904 we presume TR has moved there and stayed till 1906, when he dies. I went to Find A Grave page for Isiah Zarah Sartain, brother of Thomas Albert’s. I note he’s in TX. Then I went through his children, the first listed is Harriet R (Sartain) Moren. Her vitals are: b 11 Jun 1838 AL. d. 29 Mar 1902, Maud, Seminole Co, OK. Burial is Pleasant Valley Cemetery, Pearson, Pottawatomie Co, Ok. (look back one paragraph. I’ve bolded exact same text). It shows her husband has died the very year before her, 1901. So now she’s a widow and likely alone. Thomas Riley is also a widow. AHHHH, could TR have traveled to Ok to be with his sister, after 1900 census, and ended up staying? You don’t travel almost 400 miles in early 1900s on a whim, and then accidentally end up in the very same county of what (I strongly suspect) appears to be your sister. The odds are ZERO. Remember, no cars! Then because his father has moved, then Jim moves to take care of his father and remarries by 1904. It’s a theory.

Thomas Albert and Isaiah Zarah (or the reverse, Zarah Isaih) Sartin/Sartain

Now, I’d have to do a birth to grave on Isaiah Zarah and Thomas Albert too, and their wives (which they both had more than one) to really go into further detail but there’s enough convincing documentation here to first focus on first researching Thomas Riley’s info more and finding the missing censuses (1840-50) to really get the answer. And remember, this isn’t my line. If I had access to descendants DNA, this would give me an idea of what direction to go by focusing on the women’s lines of the wives of both Thomas Albert and Zarah, and even their parents to see what shook out of that tree. In the meantime, I’m sharing all the reasoning, what information I’d seen, and put it in chronological order.

Then there’s DNA. That’s a blog post in an of itself, and would be pertaining to specific people. If you’re of TA’s descendants’ line, you’d expect XYZ’s lines (and again, depending on which wife), same holds true for Zarah, both accounts. If you’re TR, you’ll see Sartain. You’ll even see matches having Goforth because you’re matching TAs descendants. You need to find matches that don’t descend through TA or Zarah, and ones that come through the mother’s lines further back than her to get a clearer picture. Then you need to check the DNA matches, relationships based on where they fall into the line, and if their cm amounts match how they should match (If their MRCA is a specific Xg grandparent, then you calculate the distance (cousin) you would be to each other and see if the cm matches this predicted relationship, assuming there’s not another hidden/known relationship between your two lines which could increase the potential match (One of my cousins has a dual relationship to a line we share on the maternal line, but also has it on paternal, and we never knew the two lines were actually the same line. Boy did the DNA pop that out!) But again this is a post on its own.

In the meantime here’s some census links for TA and Zarah.

Thomas Albert census links via Ancestry

  • 1840 US Federal Franklin Co, AL p (illegible) (use 91/107 Ancestry page counter), Line 2nd to last. 1 Male 2 females (1 adult, 1 child) I suspect that’s Louis.
  • 1850 6 Jan, US Federal Dist 6, Franklin Co, AL p 129 (128/142) lines 5-12 Thomas, wife Mary, Lewis M., James, Zarah (son not brother), William, Pleasant, Baby girl aged 2 mos.
  • 1860 7 Jul, US Federal Western Division, Franklin Co, AL p87 (88/126+) lines 35-40 Thomas, Nancy, Langston, Zarii (Zarah), William, Palina
  • 1870 21 Jul, US Federal T7/R14 Franklin Co, AL p 5, 6 (5/14) lines 30-40, +1-2 Thomas, Mary, Wm, Perlina, Nancy A, Mary, Margaret, Isaac, James, Isiah, Joseph, Nancy, Levi
  • 1880 17 Jun, US Federal T7/R14, Franklin Co, AL p 7 (7/18) Lines 9-18. Now I’m related here, to this wife. She’s the sister of my 3rd ggm, and their father is my 4ggf. Thomas, Tiny (s/b Tynny as in Tyrena), Niny, Heny, Albert, Jason, Levy, Jane, Fanny, Thomas (aged 3 so 1877). Noting the only child of Tyrena and TA is the youngest, Thomas Jewell. My first immediate point would be why have 2 children named Thomas (using argument TR is TA’s son).

Isaiah Zarah Sartin/Sartain census links via Ancestry. Now, I won’t pretend to know his line well enough to know which of these will be accurate, I’m just poking around in trees.

  • 1840 US Federal, Franklin Co, AL p (87/107) Zera SartIN, 1 male under 5, 1 male 20-30, 1 female under 5, 1 female 20-30. So he’s got 2 kids b. before this census 1 male, 1 female. NO one has an accurate tree! LOL As long as he doesn’t have a son b bef 1840, this would be in the area of TR being his son. But then again, look at 1850.
  • 1850 23 Dec, US Federal Dist 6, Franklin Co, AL p 25 (26/142) Lines 14-20 Zarah (SartIN), Elizabeth, Harriet, Samuel, John, Lutia, Thomas (aged 2. so 1848) (of note here, someone has assumed this is TR not looking at his ages bc we never come up with 1848 as a possible DOB given any time in his life. He also wouldn’t have been of age to fight in the Civil War (13). It does give better credence to the comment by a descendant that he leaves home between 12-14, and doesn’t come back. But if you look at the 1870 census above for TR, this is census he’s suddenly MUCH younger, using 1842 as a DOB. But unless he looked older for his age 1848, he might not have gotten in at 1863 (if that’s his MO enlistment)). See there’s a lot of ‘what ifs’, that none really pan out.
  • 1860 29 Jun, US Federal Sulphur Springs, Hopkins Co, TX pp 37/8, (11/13) Zarah, Amanda, John, Lucilla, Sophroney (These 3 b AL), Lafayette (b MS, is he from another marriage for Amanda? He’s named Lafayette Wilson), Fenton (back to Sartin b AL), Mary (MS), Catharine, Clarisa (TX for last 2 daughters). What happens to the Thomas from 1850? He’d only be aged 12, did he die?
  • 1862, 27 Dec enlists in Civil War. (But unclear if this is same Isaiah – not likely, he’s moved to Texas by Jun 1858, based on one Catharine’s DOB. I found this link first. So this leads me to think there is an Isaiah and Zarah- in Franklin Co, or the area.)
  • 1866 4 Aug DOD: Dies Hopkins, Sulphur Springs, TX , SartAIN

Ok, that’s my “quick” look while adding their names and links for the censuses have attributed to both men. Again, I am only familiar with TA specifically bc of his wife Tyrena (that was her 2nd husband. Actually, I’m related to her twice. Her 1st husband was the brother of my 3ggf, and then her sister, who md him, also my 3rd ggm). I also know more than your average bear because he’s also Cousin Jim’s ggf (2nd I think without looking) so we talk about him a lot, and thus is how I got involved in this to begin with.

…to be continued…

I’m always open to discussion and have NO problem in talking through documentation, but you have to show your work. I don’t take anyone’s word for anything. I’m also pretty good using (preferred) Ancestry DNA matches to do ‘quick and dirty’ analysis on family lines. I could teach you how to look at some of it, but I can do it so much faster and then tell you which direction to then focus on- and show you how after it that’s what is warranted. Feel free to contact me but realize I will need collaborator access to your dna matches. Before you think that’s a hoax, here’s the instructions from Ancestry on how to share DNA matches, including the levels of access (see #5). NEVER GIVE ANYONE MANAGER ACCESS UNLESS THEY ARE IN YOUR IMMEDIATE FAMILY! Viewer is great to just look, but to do what I’d need to do (group) I need Collaborator, which is the middle level access. Here’s the actual link. I won’t hide the hyperlink so you can see it’s an official Ancestry site. You can also google “share dna matches ancestry’ to get to the same place, or even other results that give the same directions. https://support.ancestry.com/s/article/Sharing-AncestryDNA-Results

Stonz~

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